Interesting article couchman.

I would have to agree that the over-riding feeling among many of my european colleagues is indeed 'How can Americans be so dumb?'. For the past four years Europeans in general have been more than happy to blame any differences they had with America on the American president and not on the American people. Now Europeans are having to wake up to the fact that it's not the American president that they have issues withg but with the American people themselves. This is a major issue for Europeans as it will totally change the way they have to deal with America.

For Europeans, issues such as Global warming, the middle east, Iraq, terrrorism, and imperialism are not being dealt with acceptably by the US. Now Europeans have to accept the fact that they can no longer hope to reach agreement on these issues with the US president, they will have to make the US voter understand the issues and problems. Up till now protests against America (Iraq, Afganistan, globalisation) have all been targetted at the administration of blank faced corporations, this is now likely to change. I expect that over the next year or two there will be a noticeable backlash against American products and goods in Europe and quite possibly elsewhere. Already I see colleagues deciding to buy non American goods. I actually saw a friend decide not to buy a ford car (though it was the one she wanted) at the weekend because it was American!

No, now Europeans have finally been forced to realise and accept that their issues lie with the American people and that those American people themselves need to be made aware of this. Economic reaction is the most likely way this will occur, coupled with stronger pressure on European governments to start reacting to US imperialism.
The next few years are unlikely to be rosey for US-European relations.

Paul.

Interesting Article and good followup Solitair. Having lived in europe, I tend to agree with you on your assesment of the next 2 years. However, I think that whatever protest are going to be somewhat muted as Europe struggles to become the one Union that they Envision. I must say they are doing a better job of it than I expected, but the Anti-Americanism will take a back seat to the petty squabbles that are going to arise as the nations surrender more and more of the sovereignity to the continental good.

Interesting comment Dr Guy.

I suspect you're going to be correct in that Europeans will have plenty of internal squabbles over the next few years, as is well highlighted by the muslim issue couchman flagged. The fundamental difference is that despite these squabbles Europeans always feel that other Europeans care. They may not agree with each other, but they do care and try to find compromises. There is a strong feeling these days that Americans just don't care about anyone else and therefore don't want to compromise. This is what Europeans will want to change. They now have to realise that it's not the US government that doesn't care, but the US people themselves.

I wouldn't classify this as anti-American either, just as an economic method to try to make the American people care.

paul.

There is a strong feeling these days that Americans just don't care about anyone else and therefore don't want to compromise.

Well...from my point of view..as an American...and the son of a ret. 20 year Marine...is that I see way too many hypocritical points of view that Europe (both the goverments and it's people) have used to what I take as nothing more than an annoying diatribe...let me put it in a simplistic set of opinions from my view....

In Europe...
The increasing call (in some cases rather nasty) for the removal of US forces from their European bases (out of Europe mentality) makes me laugh on one hand and on another shake my head in disgust...frankly keeping 75,000+ troops deployed in western Europe to defend against an old cold war threat that has evaporated makes no sense but on the same token...Europe has almost become a junky when it comes to defense matters leaning on the US while at the same time consistently letting their own militaries wither on the vine of shrinking defense budgets...aside from the Uk...the military capabilities of the rest of Europe are woefully lacking....so if Europeans want us out...they are going to have to step up and actually set a real military budget. Its also intrestng to have seen in the leadup to the Iraqi war, when the idea of deploying a sizeable chunk of the US European command to that theater, we saw a rather typical bitching arise...basicly...we were reminded that we needed to maintain our Nato commitment...and as such "diplomatic' problems arose...gee go figure....this same arguement came back around after it was made public that 75,000 troops from both S. Korea and Western Europe would be re-based either in western Europe of back in the states...once again those wonderful Nato commitments and S. Korea commitments were argued by mostly those in the 2 regions to maintain our forces..although some here argued the same....This whole point was touched on it the article...

We see the increase in the rise against american companies doing business in Europe, the rise against anything american...yet we also see how wanted the american "tourist" dollars are...this only leads to a backlash that damages not the US but those in Europe...we can see this today in France with the boycott of French products and tourist destinations...while this is counter-productive to international trade on some level...this boycott isnt goverment mandated as is the case in some of France's actions directed at us, but rather was instigated by US comsumers on their own...who prefer now to spend their money visiting other nations in Europe...intrestingly enough Germany is also listed as a place to bypass....the result of both countries opposition to the Iraqi conflict based on their own dubious links to the former regime...

We see the dipiction of our President equated as Hitler (this would also say that atleast half the US electorate is also nazis by that same rule), our military equated as mercenaries or thugs, our citizens call stupid religious bible thumpers, and probably the most sickening is the scene of US military graves from both WW1 & WW2 desecrated with destroyed headstones...with little if any outcry over the act...intresting ...this from those on a continent that considers itself a more enlightened, far superiour culture....when this sort of crap and lets face it it is crap is done...what kind of perception does that leave in american minds? It is intresting that the movement to remove our war dead and bring them home to the states to be buried is gaining ground...wonder if that would be perceived as a slight?

As to the thought that Americans don't care bout anyone else, well any time there is any sort of disaster, natural or otherwise, the US is usually the first to offer any aid to those in need...even to those goverments we consider hostile like Iran as was shown when the earthquake happened that devestated several towns.... acts like that kinda challange your opinion...but it is intresting that whenever theres a natural disaster here in the states...the offers of aid are rather silent...as the old saying goes..it's the offer that counts..regardless if we took it....


I do have to appologise for my tendency to rant and vent....do I hate all Europeans..no...did I belittle Europes militaries...hardly...I'm usually the first to jump down anyones throat for doing that regarding the individual troop commitments in Iraq...besides...I usually like the posts from you guys....even if I disagree...but this has been a long day and I really feel I didnt respond that good...for that I'm sorry....maybe I'll respond better to this post....

The feeling is mutual. Americans see Europeans (western anyway) as only caring about their own narrow interests and hence have little reason to pay them much heed in return.

Actually Europeans very much care what Americans think. They just disagree with it quite often. Remember that Europeans in general are very much tied to the principle of compromise. We have to be for the EU to actually work. It's therefore very very alien to us when the US refuses to compromise on issues, and hence the feeling that they don't care. Issues such as Kyoto, Iraq, and trade have all had US unilateral action with no compromise being reached. The US refused to compromise with the UN on inspectors in Iraq, declared Saddam had WMD and invaded. The US refused to compromise with the entire planet on Kyoto and just refuses to ratify it. The US has failed to compromise on a number of trade issues which have gone to the WTO, only changing policies when they are ruled illegal. And yes the EU is also guilty of some trade issues, but these have usually been due to health and safety worries (beef) or third world trade support (bananas).

From a European point of view, most Americans just don't care at all about the rest of the planet, and will never compromise. Europeans may appear to Americans as being narrow focussed, but you know we'll compromise on conflicting issues.

Paul.

Possibly...I feel personally that I failed to get my point across correctly in the reply...and I think I was bit too pre-occupied over curent events in Iraq, most notably at Falluja (I have a cousin currently serving with the marines there)....so that was my fault....

The US refused to compromise with the entire planet on Kyoto and just refuses to ratify it.

Unless I'm wrong, one of the reasons the US didnt ratify it was for the simple fact that Kyoto failed to include the developing countries such as China and India...which according to current estimates will surpass the US and other nations in emissions and other polution...

The US refused to compromise with the UN on inspectors in Iraq, declared Saddam had WMD and invaded.

Now this is not exactly as it sounds...lets face it the world gave the former regime 12 years, 17 resolutions, and enough diplomatic politeness to make the UN proud...Although the coalition did have forces massed in Kuwait and that was used as a sort of "Carrot & Stick" approach, the simple reality is that the threat part of that was to diminish over time, the member nations of the UN knew this...and Saddam certainly was aware of this....I would ask simply..how long were we (the World) gonna give the regime this time to prove he was abiding by the resolutions and cease-fire agreements?another 10 years...remember the burden of proof was on the regime to prove they were in compliance...not the UN, not the coalition, not John Doe down the street...and evidence does not mean 12,000 pages of documents that was submitted by the regime to the UN.. is not exactly what we all asked for...a complete accounting of all components of their WMD program...which also included physically accounting for them..which wasnt done...even Blix (who as a memer of the IAEA I believe gave a clean bill of health regarding Lybia's WMD program..who knew) said that Iraq was not being very forthcoming and felt they were hiding something...wonder if that was the fact that Iraqi scientists were working in Lybia/Syria on Saddams orders or that the French clearly were aiding Iraq by becoming the biggest roadblock in the UN...wonderful what bribing many in the UN does for following its own rules & regulations and resolutions...go figure....

However, I think that whatever protest are going to be somewhat muted as Europe struggles to become the one Union that they Envision.

I tend to disagree....anti-americanism is their bread and butter....I mean how else to make a point if somewhat laughable that there needs to be a counter-balance to the US emense power politically, ecconomicly and most important militarily. They could develope a unified military...but aside from the UK, the capabilities of the rest are woefully lacking...and frankly..the very concept of the EU today mirrors in many ways the former Soviet Union...and if it goes through...I see a deffinate problem down the road..not for the Us but for Europe....as they will try to stiffle in the almost the same manner the various nationalistic feelings of its member nations in a lesser extent than was done in the former USSR....a disasterous and violent breakup is a real possibility....

Couchman,
you are indeed correct as to why the US refuses to dign the Kytot agreement. They see this as a major issue. But this issue also exists for the EU, Japan and other industralised nations. Many of these have to lower their emissions even more than the US. The point is that Kyoto is a first step. The second step would be to set emission levels for the developing nations. Why when all other industrial nations sign Kyoto does the US refuse to. It's because they won't compromise, and accept that somethings are better for the greater good.
You are also correct in pointing out that Saddam had years of diplomancy. I supported the war remember, and felt that the sooner Saddam was removed the better. But it is a fact that at the end from resolution 1441 onwards the US refused to allow enough time for weapon inspectors to verify if Saddam had WMD. They refused to accept no sign of WMD as proof he didn;t have them. They tried to force a resolution 1442 through, effectively declaring war on Saddam. They refused to compromise with countries like France and Russia on acceptable prrof of WMD or timescales for evidence to be collected. Worst of all they then refused to compromise on a timetable and command structure for rebuilding Iraq, thus cutting out the majority of the international communinty and troops that could have been deployed.
I do however disagree with your final assessment of the EU being like the USSR. The national identity of the member states is core to the EU's ethos. We are not a homogenous union but a collection of independent state who have transferred some of their authority to a central unifying concept of free trade, equal justice, and democracy. All nations are free to take this authority back if they ever see fit. Likewise all nations maintain independent militaries, but some advancement is being made for unified external forces. The problem with the putting together unified military is one of ideals not desire. The US has been strongly lobbying against it as they feel it would weaken Nato. But a united military command, at least for foreign intervention will happen. The questions will be what format such an army will take, how countries will voluntarily contribute to such a force, and how decisions relating to that force will be made. In all things though compromise will be key. And as I've said before, that's the biggest difference that Europeans see between themselves and the US. That ability and desire to compromise.

Paul.